Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth

<p><strong>Tomer Cohen</strong> is the longtime chief product officer at LinkedIn, where he’s pioneering the Full Stack Builder program, a radical new approach to product development that fully embraces what AI makes possible. Under his leadership, LinkedIn has scrapped its traditional Associate Product Manager program and replaced it with an Associate Product Builder program that teaches coding, design, and PM skills together. He’s also introduced a formal “Full Stack Builder” title and career ladder, enabling anyone from any function to take products from idea to launch. In this conversation, Tomer explains why product development has become too complex at most companies and how LinkedIn is building an AI-powered product team that can move faster, adapt more quickly, and do more with less.</p><p></p><p><strong>We discuss:</strong></p><p>1. How 70% of the skills needed for jobs will change by 2030</p><p>2. The broken traditional model: organizational bloat slows features to a six-month cycle</p><p>3. The Full Stack Builder model</p><p>4. Three pillars of making FSB work: platform, agents, and culture (culture matters most)</p><p>5. Building specialized agents that critique ideas and find vulnerabilities</p><p>6. Why off-the-shelf AI tools never work on enterprise code without customization</p><p>7. Top performers adopt AI tools fastest, contrary to expectations about leveling effects</p><p>8. Change management tactics: celebrating wins, making tools exclusive, updating performance reviews</p><p>—</p><p><strong>Brought to you by:</strong></p><p><a target="_blank" href="https://vanta.com/lenny"><strong>Vanta</strong></a>—Automate compliance. Simplify security: <a target="_blank" href="https://vanta.com/lenny">https://vanta.com/lenny</a></p><p><a target="_blank" href="https://www.figma.com/lenny/"><strong>Figma Make</strong></a>—A prompt-to-code tool for making ideas real: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.figma.com/lenny/">https://www.figma.com/lenny/</a></p><p><a target="_blank" href="https://miro.com/lenny"><strong>Miro</strong></a>—The AI Innovation Workspace where teams discover, plan, and ship breakthrough products: <a target="_blank" href="https://miro.com/lenny">https://miro.com/lenny</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>Transcript: </strong><a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/why-linkedin-is-replacing-pms">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/why-linkedin-is-replacing-pms</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): </strong><a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/180042347/my-takeaways-from-this-conversation">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/180042347/my-takeaways-from-this-conversation</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>Where to find Tomer Cohen:</strong></p><p>• LinkedIn: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/tomercohen">https://www.linkedin.com/in/tomercohen</a></p><p>• Podcast: <a target="_blank" href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/building-one-with-tomer-cohen/id1726672498">https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/building-one-with-tomer-cohen/id1726672498</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>Where to find Lenny:</strong></p><p>• Newsletter: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com</a></p><p>• X: <a target="_blank" href="https://twitter.com/lennysan">https://twitter.com/lennysan</a></p><p>• LinkedIn: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>In this episode, we cover:</strong></p><p>(00:00) Introduction to Tomer Cohen</p><p>(04:42) The need for change in product development</p><p>(11:52) The full-stack builder model explained</p><p>(16:03) Implementing AI and automation in product development</p><p>(19:17) Building and customizing AI tools</p><p>(27:51) The timeline to launch</p><p>(31:46) Pilot program and early results</p><p>(37:04) Feedback from top talent</p><p>(39:48) Change management and adoption</p><p>(46:53) Encouraging people to play with AI tools</p><p>(41:21) Performance reviews and full-stack builders</p><p>(48:00) Challenges and specialization</p><p>(50:05) Finding talent</p><p>(52:46) Tips for implementing in your own company</p><p>(56:43) Lightning round and final thoughts</p><p>—</p><p><strong>Referenced:</strong></p><p>• How LinkedIn became interesting: The inside story | Tomer Cohen (CPO at LinkedIn): <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-linkedin-became-interesting-tomer-cohen">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-linkedin-became-interesting-tomer-cohen</a></p><p>• LinkedIn: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com">https://www.linkedin.com</a></p><p>• Cursor: <a target="_blank" href="https://cursor.com">https://cursor.com</a></p><p>• The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can’t stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell</a></p><p>• Devin: <a target="_blank" href="https://devin.ai">https://devin.ai</a></p><p>• Figma: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.figma.com">https://www.figma.com</a></p><p>• Microsoft Copilot: <a target="_blank" href="https://copilot.microsoft.com">https://copilot.microsoft.com</a></p><p>• Windsurf: <a target="_blank" href="https://windsurf.com">https://windsurf.com</a></p><p>• Building a magical AI code editor used by over 1 million developers in four months: The untold story of Windsurf | Varun Mohan (co-founder and CEO): <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-untold-story-of-windsurf-varun-mohan">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-untold-story-of-windsurf-varun-mohan</a></p><p>• Lovable: <a target="_blank" href="https://lovable.dev">https://lovable.dev</a></p><p>• Building Lovable: $10M ARR in 60 days with 15 people | Anton Osika (co-founder and CEO): <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-lovable-anton-osika">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-lovable-anton-osika</a></p><p>• APB program at LinkedIn: <a target="_blank" href="https://careers.linkedin.com/pathways-programs/entry-level/apb">https://careers.linkedin.com/pathways-programs/entry-level/apb</a></p><p>• Naval Ravikant on X: <a target="_blank" href="https://x.com/naval">https://x.com/naval</a></p><p>• One Song podcast: <a target="_blank" href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%A8-%D7%90%D7%97%D7%93-one-song/id1201883177">https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%A8-%D7%90%D7%97%D7%93-one-song/id1201883177</a></p><p>• Song Exploder podcast: <a target="_blank" href="https://songexploder.net">https://songexploder.net</a></p><p>• Grok on Tesla: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.tesla.com/support/grok">https://www.tesla.com/support/grok</a></p><p>• Reid Hoffman on X: <a target="_blank" href="https://x.com/reidhoffman">https://x.com/reidhoffman</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>Recommended books:</strong></p><p>• <em>Why Nations Fail: The Origins of Power, Prosperity, and Poverty</em>: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/Why-Nations-Fail-Origins-Prosperity/dp/0307719227">https://www.amazon.com/Why-Nations-Fail-Origins-Prosperity/dp/0307719227</a></p><p>• <em>Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity</em>: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/Outlive-Longevity-Peter-Attia-MD/dp/0593236599">https://www.amazon.com/Outlive-Longevity-Peter-Attia-MD/dp/0593236599</a></p><p>• <em>The Beginning of Infinity: Explanations That Transform the World</em>: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/Beginning-Infinity-Explanations-Transform-World/dp/0143121359">https://www.amazon.com/Beginning-Infinity-Explanations-Transform-World/dp/0143121359</a></p><p>—</p><p>Production and marketing by <a target="_blank" href="https://penname.co/">https://penname.co/</a>. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email <a target="_blank" href="mailto:podcast@lennyrachitsky.com">podcast@lennyrachitsky.com</a>.</p><p>—</p><p><em>Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.</em></p> <br/><br/>To hear more, visit <a href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com?utm_medium=podcast&#38;utm_campaign=show-notes-no-free-preview-language">www.lennysnewsletter.com</a>

<p><strong>Stewart Butterfield</strong> is the co-founder of Slack and Flickr, two of the most influential products in internet history. After selling Slack to Salesforce in one of tech’s biggest acquisitions, he’s been focused on family, philanthropy, and creative projects. In this rare podcast appearance, Stewart shares the product frameworks and leadership principles that most contributed to his success. From “utility curves” to “the owner’s delusion” to “hyper-realistic work-like activities,” his thoughts on craft, strategy, and leadership apply to anyone building products or leading teams.</p><p></p><p><strong>We discuss:</strong></p><p>1. Hyper-realistic work-like activities</p><p>2. The owner’s delusion</p><p>3. Utility curves</p><p>4. “Don’t make me think”</p><p>5. “We don’t sell saddles here”</p><p>6. Tilting your umbrella</p><p>7. When to pivot</p><p>—</p><p><strong>Brought to you by:</strong></p><p><a target="_blank" href="https://workos.com/lenny"><strong>WorkOS</strong></a>—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs</p><p><a target="_blank" href="https://metronome.com/"><strong>Metronome</strong></a>—Monetization infrastructure for modern software companies</p><p><a target="_blank" href="https://lovable.dev/"><strong>Lovable</strong></a>—Build apps by simply chatting with AI</p><p>—</p><p><strong>Transcript:</strong> <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/slack-founder-stewart-butterfield">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/slack-founder-stewart-butterfield</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers):</strong> <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/178320649/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/178320649/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>Where to find Stewart Butterfield:</strong></p><p>• X: <a target="_blank" href="https://x.com/stewart">https://x.com/stewart</a></p><p>• LinkedIn: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/butterfield">https://www.linkedin.com/in/butterfield</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>Where to find Lenny:</strong></p><p>• Newsletter: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com</a></p><p>• X: <a target="_blank" href="https://twitter.com/lennysan">https://twitter.com/lennysan</a></p><p>• LinkedIn: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>In this episode, we cover:</strong></p><p>(00:00) Introduction to Stewart Butterfield</p><p>(04:58) Stewart’s current life and reflections</p><p>(06:44) Understanding utility curves</p><p>(10:13) The concept of divine discontent</p><p>(15:11) The importance of taste in product design</p><p>(19:03) Tilting your umbrella</p><p>(28:32) Balancing friction and comprehension</p><p>(45:07) The value of constant dissatisfaction</p><p>(47:06) Embracing continuous improvement</p><p>(50:03) The complexity of making things work</p><p>(54:27) Parkinson’s law and organizational growth</p><p>(01:03:17) Hyper-realistic work-like activities</p><p>(01:13:23) Advice on when to pivot</p><p>(01:18:36) The importance of generosity in leadership</p><p>(01:26:34) The owner’s delusion</p><p>—</p><p><strong>Referenced:</strong></p><p>• Slack: <a target="_blank" href="https://slack.com">https://slack.com</a></p><p>• Flickr: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.flickr.com">https://www.flickr.com</a></p><p>• Cal Henderson on LinkedIn: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/iamcal">https://www.linkedin.com/in/iamcal</a></p><p>• Blok: <a target="_blank" href="https://blok.so">https://blok.so</a></p><p>• Brandon Velestuk on LinkedIn: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandon-velestuk-6018721b">https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandon-velestuk-6018721b</a></p><p>• Magic Link: <a target="_blank" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Link">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Link</a></p><p>• Ticketmaster: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.ticketmaster.com">https://www.ticketmaster.com</a></p><p>• John Collison on X: <a target="_blank" href="https://x.com/collision">https://x.com/collision</a></p><p>• Patrick Collison on X: <a target="_blank" href="https://x.com/patrickc">https://x.com/patrickc</a></p><p>• Sundar Pichai on LinkedIn: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/sundarpichai">https://www.linkedin.com/in/sundarpichai</a></p><p>• Three Questions with Slack’s CEO: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.technologyreview.com/2014/11/21/170330/three-questions-with-slacks-ceo">https://www.technologyreview.com/2014/11/21/170330/three-questions-with-slacks-ceo</a></p><p>• Six Sigma: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.6sigma.us">https://www.6sigma.us</a></p><p>• What is kaizen and how does Toyota use it?: <a target="_blank" href="https://mag.toyota.co.uk/kaizen-toyota-production-system">https://mag.toyota.co.uk/kaizen-toyota-production-system</a></p><p>• John Collison’s post on X about passion projects: <a target="_blank" href="https://x.com/collision/status/1529452415346302976">https://x.com/collision/status/1529452415346302976</a></p><p>• Parkinson’s law: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.economist.com/news/1955/11/19/parkinsons-law">https://www.economist.com/news/1955/11/19/parkinsons-law</a></p><p>• We Don’t Sell Saddles Here: <a target="_blank" href="https://medium.com/@stewart/we-dont-sell-saddles-here-4c59524d650d">https://medium.com/@stewart/we-dont-sell-saddles-here-4c59524d650d</a></p><p>• Glitch: <a target="_blank" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glitch_(video_game)">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glitch_(video_game)</a></p><p>• IRC: <a target="_blank" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRC">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRC</a></p><p>• This will make you a better decision-maker | Annie Duke (author of “Thinking in Bets” and “Quit,” former pro poker player): <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/making-better-decisions-annie-duke">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/making-better-decisions-annie-duke</a></p><p>• The woman behind Canva shares how she built a $42B company from nothing | Melanie Perkins: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-making-of-canva">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-making-of-canva</a></p><p>• Prisoner’s dilemma: <a target="_blank" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma</a></p><p>• <em>Stewart Little</em>: <a target="_blank" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuart_Little">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuart_Little</a></p><p>• <em>Dharma and Greg</em>: <a target="_blank" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma_%26_Greg">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma_%26_Greg</a></p><p>• Stewart’s post on X referencing “the owner’s delusion”: <a target="_blank" href="https://x.com/stewart/status/1223286626991796224">https://x.com/stewart/status/1223286626991796224</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>Recommended books:</strong></p><p>• <em>Principles: Life and Work</em>: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/Principles-Life-Work-Ray-Dalio/dp/1501124021">https://www.amazon.com/Principles-Life-Work-Ray-Dalio/dp/1501124021</a></p><p>• <em>Why Nothing Works: Who Killed Progress―and How to Bring It Back</em>: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/Why-Nothing-Works-Killed-Progress_and/dp/154170021X">https://www.amazon.com/Why-Nothing-Works-Killed-Progress_and/dp/154170021X</a></p><p>• <em>Positioning: The Battle for Your Mind</em>: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/Positioning-Battle-Your-Al-Ries/dp/0071373586">https://www.amazon.com/Positioning-Battle-Your-Al-Ries/dp/0071373586</a></p><p>• <em>Quit: The Power of Knowing When to Walk Away</em>: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/Quit-Power-Knowing-When-Walk/dp/0593422996">https://www.amazon.com/Quit-Power-Knowing-When-Walk/dp/0593422996</a></p><p>—</p><p>Production and marketing by <a target="_blank" href="https://penname.co/">https://penname.co/</a>. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email <a target="_blank" href="mailto:podcast@lennyrachitsky.com">podcast@lennyrachitsky.com</a>.</p><p>—</p><p><em>Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.</em></p> <br/><br/>To hear more, visit <a href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com?utm_medium=podcast&#38;utm_campaign=show-notes-no-free-preview-language">www.lennysnewsletter.com</a>

<p><strong>Dr. Fei-Fei Li </strong>is<strong> </strong>known as the “godmother of AI.” She’s been at the center of AI’s biggest breakthroughs for over two decades. She spearheaded ImageNet, the dataset that sparked the deep-learning revolution we’re living right now, served as Google Cloud’s Chief AI Scientist, directed Stanford’s Artificial Intelligence Lab, and co-founded Stanford’s Institute for Human-Centered AI. In this conversation, Fei-Fei shares the rarely told history of how we got here—including the wild fact that just nine years ago, calling yourself an AI company was basically a death sentence.</p><p></p><p><strong>We discuss:</strong></p><p>1. How ImageNet helped spark the AI explosion we’re living through</p><p>2. Why world models and spatial intelligence represent the next frontier in AI, beyond large language models</p><p>3. Why Fei-Fei believes AI won’t replace humans but will require us to take responsibility for ourselves</p><p>4. The surprising applications of Marble, from movie production to psychological research</p><p>5. Why robotics faces unique challenges compared with language models and what’s needed to overcome them</p><p>6. How to participate in AI regardless of your role</p><p>—</p><p><strong>Brought to you by:</strong></p><p><a target="_blank" href="https://www.figma.com/lenny/"><strong>Figma Make</strong></a>—A prompt-to-code tool for making ideas real</p><p><a target="_blank" href="https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/trackclk/N9515.5688857LENNYSPODCAST/B33689522.424106370;dc_trk_aid=616284521;dc_trk_cid=237010502;dc_lat=;dc_rdid=;tag_for_child_directed_treatment=;tfua=;gdpr=$%7BGDPR%7D;gdpr_consent=$%7BGDPR_CONSENT_755%7D;ltd=;dc_tdv=1"><strong>Justworks</strong></a>—The all-in-one HR solution for managing your small business with confidence</p><p><a target="_blank" href="https://sinch.com/lenny"><strong>Sinch</strong></a>—Build messaging, email, and calling into your product</p><p>—</p><p><strong>Transcript: </strong><a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-godmother-of-ai">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-godmother-of-ai</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers):</strong></p><p><a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/178223233/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/178223233/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>Where to find Dr. Fei-Fei Li</strong></p><p>• X: <a target="_blank" href="https://x.com/drfeifei">https://x.com/drfeifei</a></p><p>• LinkedIn: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/fei-fei-li-4541247">https://www.linkedin.com/in/fei-fei-li-4541247</a></p><p>• World Labs: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.worldlabs.ai">https://www.worldlabs.ai</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>Where to find Lenny:</strong></p><p>• Newsletter: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com</a></p><p>• X: <a target="_blank" href="https://twitter.com/lennysan">https://twitter.com/lennysan</a></p><p>• LinkedIn: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>In this episode, we cover:</strong></p><p>(00:00) Introduction to Dr. Fei-Fei Li</p><p>(05:31) The evolution of AI</p><p>(09:37) The birth of ImageNet</p><p>(17:25) The rise of deep learning</p><p>(23:53) The future of AI and AGI</p><p>(29:51) Introduction to world models</p><p>(40:45) The bitter lesson in AI and robotics</p><p>(48:02) Introducing Marble, a revolutionary product</p><p>(51:00) Applications and use cases of Marble</p><p>(01:01:01) The founder’s journey and insights</p><p>(01:10:05) Human-centered AI at Stanford</p><p>(01:14:24) The role of AI in various professions</p><p>(01:18:16) Conclusion and final thoughts</p><p>—</p><p><strong>References: </strong><a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-godmother-of-ai">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-godmother-of-ai</a></p><p>—</p><p>Production and marketing by <a target="_blank" href="https://penname.co/">https://penname.co/</a>. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email <a target="_blank" href="mailto:podcast@lennyrachitsky.com">podcast@lennyrachitsky.com</a>.</p><p>—</p><p><em>Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.</em></p><p></p> <br/><br/>To hear more, visit <a href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com?utm_medium=podcast&#38;utm_campaign=show-notes-no-free-preview-language">www.lennysnewsletter.com</a>

<p><strong>Grant Lee</strong> is the co-founder of Gamma, the AI-powered presentation tool that’s one of the hottest and most interesting AI startups in the world right now. They’re valued at over $2 billion, and they hit $100 million ARR in just over two years, with a lean team of just around 30 people. Unlike many fast-growing AI startups, Gamma has been profitable for most of its history, has not raised significant funding, and they built a massive business in a category most investors dismissed. In fact, one investor told Grant his idea was “the dumbest idea he had ever heard.”</p><p><strong>We discuss:</strong></p><p>• How Gamma found product-market fit by rethinking their onboarding</p><p>• Their process for building a “word-of-mouth machine”</p><p>• How they leveraged more than 1,000 micro-influencers instead of big names</p><p>• Why focusing on the “first 30 seconds” transformed their business</p><p>• Their approach to pricing that led to profitability within months</p><p>• How Grant thinks about building a durable “GPT wrapper” business</p><p>—</p><p><strong>Brought to you by:</strong></p><p><a target="_blank" href="https://vanta.com/lenny"><strong>Vanta</strong></a>—Automate compliance. Simplify security.</p><p><a target="_blank" href="https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/trackclk/N9515.5688857LENNYSPODCAST/B33689522.424104507;dc_trk_aid=616483002;dc_trk_cid=237010502;dc_lat=;dc_rdid=;tag_for_child_directed_treatment=;tfua=;gdpr=${GDPR};gdpr_consent=${GDPR_CONSENT_755};ltd=;dc_tdv=1"><strong>Justworks</strong></a>—The all-in-one HR solution for managing your small business with confidence</p><p><a target="_blank" href="https://miro.com/lenny"><strong>Miro</strong></a>—A collaborative visual platform where your best work comes to life</p><p>—</p><p><strong>Where to find Grant Lee:</strong></p><p>• X: <a target="_blank" href="https://x.com/thisisgrantlee">https://x.com/thisisgrantlee</a></p><p>• LinkedIn: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/grantslee/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/grantslee</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>Where to find Lenny:</strong></p><p>• Newsletter: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com</a></p><p>• X: <a target="_blank" href="https://twitter.com/lennysan">https://twitter.com/lennysan</a></p><p>• LinkedIn: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>In this episode, we cover:</strong></p><p>(00:00) Introduction to Grant Lee and Gamma</p><p>(05:59) The founding story of Gamma</p><p>(09:52) Achieving product-market fit</p><p>(15:43) Self-awareness as a founder</p><p>(17:17) The power of onboarding</p><p>(20:41) The original insight that led to Gamma</p><p>(22:42) Founder-led marketing and growth tactics</p><p>(29:20) Sharing online</p><p>(37:40) Getting to $100M ARR</p><p>(41:19) Influencer marketing as a growth strategy</p><p>(54:08) Virality is not an accident</p><p>(58:30) Investing in brand before paid ads</p><p>(01:02:04) Tips for getting started with performance marketing</p><p>(01:04:49) Prototyping and user feedback</p><p>(01:16:12) Adapting and moving quickly</p><p>(01:19:21) The concept of GPT wrapper companies</p><p>(01:22:16) Deep dive into workflow and model utilization</p><p>(01:29:06) Pricing strategies</p><p>(01:34:53) Hiring philosophy and practices</p><p>(01:43:24) Betting big on high performers</p><p>(01:45:03) Final thoughts and lightning round</p><p>—</p><p><strong>References: </strong><a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-50-people-built-a-profitable-ai-unicorn">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-50-people-built-a-profitable-ai-unicorn</a></p><p>—</p><p><em>Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.</em></p> <br/><br/>To hear more, visit <a href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com?utm_medium=podcast&#38;utm_campaign=show-notes-no-free-preview-language">www.lennysnewsletter.com</a>

<p><strong>Jen Abel</strong> is GM of Enterprise at State Affairs and co-founded Jellyfish, a consultancy that helps founders learn zero-to-one enterprise sales. She’s one of the smartest people I’ve ever met on learning enterprise sales, and in this follow-up to our first chat two years ago (covering the zero to $1 million ARR founder-led sales phase), we focus on the skills founders need to learn to go from $1M to $10M ARR.</p><p><strong>We discuss:</strong></p><p>1. Why the “mid-market” doesn’t exist</p><p>2. Why tier-one logos like Stripe and Tesla counterintuitively make the best early customers</p><p>3. The dangers of pricing your product at $10K-$20K</p><p>4. Why you need to vision-cast instead of problem-solve to win enterprise deals</p><p>5. Why services are the fastest way to get your foot in the door with enterprises</p><p>6. How to find and work with design partners</p><p>7. When to hire your first salesperson and what profile to look for</p><p>—</p><p><strong>Brought to you by:</strong></p><p><a target="_blank" href="https://workos.com/lenny"><strong>WorkOS</strong></a>—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs</p><p><a target="_blank" href="https://lovable.dev/"><strong>Lovable</strong></a>—Build apps by simply chatting with AI</p><p><a target="_blank" href="https://coda.io/lenny"><strong>Coda</strong></a>—The all-in-one collaborative workspace</p><p>—</p><p><strong>Where to find Jen Abel:</strong></p><p>• X: <a target="_blank" href="https://x.com/jjen_abel">https://x.com/jjen_abel</a></p><p>• LinkedIn: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/earlystagesales">https://www.linkedin.com/in/earlystagesales</a></p><p>• Website: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.jjellyfish.com">https://www.jjellyfish.com</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>Where to find Lenny:</strong></p><p>• Newsletter: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com</a></p><p>• X: <a target="_blank" href="https://twitter.com/lennysan">https://twitter.com/lennysan</a></p><p>• LinkedIn: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>In this episode, we cover:</strong></p><p>(00:00) Welcome back, Jen!</p><p>(04:38) The myth of the mid-market</p><p>(08:08) Targeting tier-one logos</p><p>(10:50) Vision-casting vs. problem-selling</p><p>(15:35) The importance of high ACVs</p><p>(20:45)  Don’t play the small business game with an enterprise company</p><p>(25:09) Design partners: the double-edged sword</p><p>(28:11) Finding the right company</p><p>(36:55) Enterprise sales: the art of the deal</p><p>(43:21) The problem with channel partnerships</p><p>(44:41) Quick summary</p><p>(50:24) Hiring the right enterprise salespeople</p><p>(56:49) Structuring sales compensation</p><p>(01:01:01) Building relationships in enterprise sales</p><p>(01:02:07) The art of cold outreach</p><p>(01:07:31) Outbound tooling and AI</p><p>(01:14:08) Lightning round and final thoughts</p><p>—</p><p><strong>Referenced:</strong></p><p>• The ultimate guide to founder-led sales | Jen Abel (co-founder of JJELLYFISH): <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/master-founder-led-sales-jen-abel">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/master-founder-led-sales-jen-abel</a></p><p>• Mario meme: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/missing-meme-led-me-woman-johann-van-tonder-im6df/">https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/missing-meme-led-me-woman-johann-van-tonder-im6df</a></p><p>• Kathy Sierra: <a target="_blank" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathy_Sierra">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathy_Sierra</a></p><p>• Cursor: <a target="_blank" href="https://cursor.com">https://cursor.com</a></p><p>• The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can’t stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell</a></p><p>• Justin Lawson on X: <a target="_blank" href="https://x.com/jjustin_lawson">https://x.com/jjustin_lawson</a></p><p>• Stripe: <a target="_blank" href="https://stripe.com">https://stripe.com</a></p><p>• Building product at Stripe: craft, metrics, and customer obsession | Jeff Weinstein (Product lead): <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-product-at-stripe-jeff-weinstein">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-product-at-stripe-jeff-weinstein</a></p><p>• He saved OpenAI, invented the “Like” button, and built Google Maps: Bret Taylor on the future of careers, coding, agents, and more: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/he-saved-openai-bret-taylor">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/he-saved-openai-bret-taylor</a></p><p>• OpenAI’s CPO on how AI changes must-have skills, moats, coding, startup playbooks, more | Kevin Weil (CPO at OpenAI, ex-Instagram, Twitter): <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/kevin-weil-open-ai">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/kevin-weil-open-ai</a></p><p>• Anthropic’s CPO on what comes next | Mike Krieger (co-founder of Instagram): <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/anthropics-cpo-heres-what-comes-next">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/anthropics-cpo-heres-what-comes-next</a></p><p>• Linear: <a target="_blank" href="https://linear.app">https://linear.app</a></p><p>• Linear’s secret to building beloved B2B products | Nan Yu (Head of Product): <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/linears-secret-to-building-beloved-b2b-products-nan-yu">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/linears-secret-to-building-beloved-b2b-products-nan-yu</a></p><p>• Gemini: <a target="_blank" href="https://gemini.google.com">https://gemini.google.com</a></p><p>• Microsoft Copilot: <a target="_blank" href="https://copilot.microsoft.com">https://copilot.microsoft.com</a></p><p>• How Palantir built the ultimate founder factory | Nabeel S. Qureshi (founder, writer, ex-Palantir): <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-palantir-nabeel-qureshi">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-palantir-nabeel-qureshi</a></p><p>• McKinsey & Company: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.mckinsey.com">https://www.mckinsey.com</a></p><p>• Deloitte: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.deloitte.com">https://www.deloitte.com</a></p><p>• Accenture: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.accenture.com">https://www.accenture.com</a></p><p>• Building a world-class sales org | Jason Lemkin (SaaStr): <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-a-world-class-sales-org">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-a-world-class-sales-org</a></p><p>• Peter Dedene on X: <a target="_blank" href="https://x.com/peterdedene">https://x.com/peterdedene</a></p><p>• Hang Huang on X: <a target="_blank" href="https://x.com/HH_HangHuang">https://x.com/HH_HangHuang</a></p><p>• Hugo Alves on X: <a target="_blank" href="https://x.com/Ugo_alves">https://x.com/Ugo_alves</a></p><p>• A step-by-step guide to crafting a sales pitch that wins | April Dunford (author of Obviously Awesome and Sales Pitch): <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/a-step-by-step-guide-to-crafting">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/a-step-by-step-guide-to-crafting</a></p><p>• Clay: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.clay.com">https://www.clay.com</a></p><p>• Apollo: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.apollo.io">https://www.apollo.io</a></p><p>• Jason Lemkin on X: <a target="_blank" href="https://x.com/jasonlk">https://x.com/jasonlk</a></p><p>• Gavin Baker on X: <a target="_blank" href="https://x.com/GavinSBaker">https://x.com/GavinSBaker</a></p><p>• Jason Cohen on X: <a target="_blank" href="https://x.com/asmartbear">https://x.com/asmartbear</a></p><p>• <em>Baywatch on </em>Prime Video: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.primevideo.com/detail/Baywatch/0NU9YS8WWRNQO1NZD5DOQ3I8W6">https://www.primevideo.com/detail/Baywatch/0NU9YS8WWRNQO1NZD5DOQ3I8W6</a></p><p>• Playground: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.tryplayground.com">https://www.tryplayground.com</a></p><p>• ClassDojo: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.classdojo.com">https://www.classdojo.com</a></p><p>• Jason Lemkin’s post about Replit: <a target="_blank" href="https://x.com/jasonlk/status/1946069562723897802">https://x.com/jasonlk/status/1946069562723897802</a></p><p>—</p><p>Production and marketing by <a target="_blank" href="https://penname.co/">https://penname.co/</a>. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email <a target="_blank" href="mailto:podcast@lennyrachitsky.com">podcast@lennyrachitsky.com</a>.</p><p>—</p><p><em>Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.</em></p> <br/><br/>To hear more, visit <a href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com?utm_medium=podcast&#38;utm_campaign=show-notes-no-free-preview-language">www.lennysnewsletter.com</a>

<p><strong>Albert Cheng</strong> has led growth at three of the world’s most successful consumer subscription companies: Duolingo, Grammarly, and Chess.com. A former Google product manager (and serious pianist!), Albert developed a unique approach to finding and scaling growth opportunities through rapid experimentation and deep user psychology. His teams run 1,000 experiments a year, discovering counterintuitive insights that have driven tens of millions in revenue.</p><p><strong>What you’ll learn:</strong></p><p>1. How to use the explore-exploit framework to find new growth opportunities</p><p>2. How showing premium features to free users doubled Grammarly’s upgrades to paid plans</p><p>3. What good retention looks like for a consumer subscription app</p><p>4. Why resurrected users drive 80% of mature product growth</p><p>5. Why “reverse trials” work better than time-based trials</p><p>6. The three pillars of successful gamification: core loop, metagame, and profile </p><p>—</p><p><strong>Brought to you by:</strong></p><p><a target="_blank" href="https://vanta.com/lenny"><strong>Vanta</strong></a>—Automate compliance. Simplify security.</p><p><a target="_blank" href="https://atlassian.com/lenny/?utm_source=lennypodcast&#38;utm_medium=paid-audio&#38;utm_campaign=fy24q1-jpd-imc"><strong>Jira Product Discovery</strong></a>—Confidence to build the right thing</p><p><a target="_blank" href="https://miro.com/lenny"><strong>Miro</strong></a>—A collaborative visual platform where your best work comes to life</p><p>—</p><p><strong>Where to find Albert Cheng:</strong></p><p>• X: <a target="_blank" href="https://x.com/albertc248">https://x.com/albertc248</a></p><p>• LinkedIn: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/albertcheng1/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/albertcheng1/</a></p><p>• Chess.com: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.chess.com/member/Goniners">https://www.chess.com/member/Goniners</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>Where to find Lenny:</strong></p><p>• Newsletter: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com</a></p><p>• X: <a target="_blank" href="https://twitter.com/lennysan">https://twitter.com/lennysan</a></p><p>• LinkedIn: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>Referenced:</strong></p><p>• How Duolingo reignited user growth: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-duolingo-reignited-user-growth">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-duolingo-reignited-user-growth</a></p><p>• Inside ChatGPT: The fastest-growing product in history | Nick Turley (Head of ChatGPT at OpenAI): <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-chatgpt-nick-turley">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-chatgpt-nick-turley</a></p><p>• Explore vs. Exploit: <a target="_blank" href="https://brianbalfour.com/quick-takes/explore-vs-exploit">https://brianbalfour.com/quick-takes/explore-vs-exploit</a></p><p>• Grammarly: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.grammarly.com/">https://www.grammarly.com/</a></p><p>• Reforge: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.reforge.com/">https://www.reforge.com/</a></p><p>• Chess.com: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.chess.com/">https://www.chess.com/</a></p><p>• Everyone’s an engineer now: Inside v0’s mission to create a hundred million builders | Guillermo Rauch (founder & CEO of Vercel, creators of v0 and <a target="_blank" href="http://next.js">Next.js</a>): <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/everyones-an-engineer-now-guillermo-rauch">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/everyones-an-engineer-now-guillermo-rauch</a></p><p>• Building Lovable: $10M ARR in 60 days with 15 people | Anton Osika (CEO and co-founder): <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-lovable-anton-osika">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-lovable-anton-osika</a></p><p>• Figma: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.figma.com/">https://www.figma.com/</a></p><p>• Cursor: <a target="_blank" href="https://cursor.com/">https://cursor.com/</a></p><p>• The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can’t stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell</a></p><p>• Claude Code: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.anthropic.com/claude-code">https://www.anthropic.com/claude-code</a></p><p>• GitHub Copilot: <a target="_blank" href="https://github.com/features/copilot">https://github.com/features/copilot</a></p><p>• Noam Lovinsky on LinkedIn: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/noaml/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/noaml/</a></p><p>• The happiness and pain of product management | Noam Lovinsky (Grammarly, Facebook, YouTube, Thumbtack): <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-happiness-and-pain-of-product">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-happiness-and-pain-of-product</a></p><p>• Kyla Siedband on LinkedIn: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/kylasiedband/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/kylasiedband/</a></p><p>• The Duolingo handbook: <a target="_blank" href="https://blog.duolingo.com/handbook/">https://blog.duolingo.com/handbook/</a></p><p>• Lenny’s post on X about the Duolingo handbook: <a target="_blank" href="https://x.com/lennysan/status/1889008405584683091">https://x.com/lennysan/status/1889008405584683091</a></p><p>• The rituals of great teams | Shishir Mehrotra of Coda, YouTube, Microsoft: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rituals-of-great-teams-shishir">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rituals-of-great-teams-shishir</a></p><p>• Duolingo on TikTok: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.tiktok.com/@duolingo">https://www.tiktok.com/@duolingo</a></p><p>• Kasparov vs. Deep Blue | The Match That Changed History: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.chess.com/article/view/deep-blue-kasparov-chess">https://www.chess.com/article/view/deep-blue-kasparov-chess</a></p><p>• Magnus Carlsen: <a target="_blank" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_Carlsen">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_Carlsen</a></p><p>• Elo rating system: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.chess.com/terms/elo-rating-chess">https://www.chess.com/terms/elo-rating-chess</a></p><p>• Stockfish: <a target="_blank" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockfish_(chess)">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockfish_(chess)</a></p><p>• <em>AlphaGo </em>on Prime Video: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.primevideo.com/detail/AlphaGo/0KNQHKKDAOE8OCYKQS9WSSDYN0">https://www.primevideo.com/detail/AlphaGo/0KNQHKKDAOE8OCYKQS9WSSDYN0</a></p><p>• Statsig: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.statsig.com/">https://www.statsig.com/</a></p><p>• The State of Product in 2026: Navigating Change, Challenge, and Opportunity: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.atlassian.com/blog/announcements/state-of-product-2026">https://www.atlassian.com/blog/announcements/state-of-product-2026</a></p><p>• Erik Allebest on LinkedIn: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/erikallebest/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/erikallebest/</a></p><p>• Daniel Rensch on X: <a target="_blank" href="https://x.com/danielrensch">https://x.com/danielrensch</a></p><p>• Chariot: <a target="_blank" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot_(company)">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot_(company)</a></p><p>• San Francisco 49ers: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.49ers.com/">https://www.49ers.com/</a></p><p>• Breville Barista Express: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.breville.com/en-us/product/bes870">https://www.breville.com/en-us/product/bes870</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>Recommended books:</strong></p><p>• <em>Snuggle Puppy!: A Little Love Song</em>: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/Snuggle-Puppy-Little-Boynton-Board/dp/1665924985">https://www.amazon.com/Snuggle-Puppy-Little-Boynton-Board/dp/1665924985</a></p><p>• <em>Ogilvy on Advertising</em>: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/Ogilvy-Advertising-David/dp/039472903X">https://www.amazon.com/Ogilvy-Advertising-David/dp/039472903X</a></p><p>• <em>Dark Squares: How Chess Saved My Life</em>: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Squares-Chess-Saved-Life/dp/1541703286">https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Squares-Chess-Saved-Life/dp/1541703286</a></p><p>—</p><p>Production and marketing by <a target="_blank" href="https://penname.co/">https://penname.co/</a>. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email <a target="_blank" href="mailto:podcast@lennyrachitsky.com">podcast@lennyrachitsky.com</a>.</p><p><em>Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.</em></p> <br/><br/>To hear more, visit <a href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com?utm_medium=podcast&#38;utm_campaign=show-notes-no-free-preview-language">www.lennysnewsletter.com</a>