Decoder with Nilay Patel

Our guest today is Gaby Del Valle, a policy reporter here at The Verge, and we’re discussing the growing backlash against AI data centers. Gaby recently reported a fantastic piece about Hernando County, Florida, where last month the county commission unanimously approved a year-long moratorium on data center construction. So I wanted Gaby to talk me through what these protests look like on the ground, from voters whose party affiliations have typically aligned them with big business. Links:  Right-wingers protesting data centers have a lot in common with the left | The Verge No data centers in my backyard | Jasmine Sun Who’s afraid of the big, bad GPU? | The Verge  NY becomes the first state to enact a data center moratorium | The Verge The fight against AI data centers is just beginning | The Verge Florida gives millions in tax breaks to data centers under DeSantis-backed law | Tampa Bay Times Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our supervising producer is Greg Ott, and our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Toni Schneider, the new head of social platform Bluesky who formally took over after a short stint as interim CEO. This is one of my favorite kinds of interviews, because a couple years ago we had Bluesky’s prior CEO, Jay Graber, on the show — she’s now the company’s chief innovation officer. All of that kind of shuffle is pure Decoder bait: a new CEO often brings with them new priorities, which is perhaps the most Decoder subject of all. Links:  Bluesky CEO Jay Graber | Decoder (2024) Bluesky CEO Jay Graber steps down | TechCrunch Staying in the game | Toni Schneider The messy WordPress drama, explained | The Verge Proton CTO Bart Butler | Decoder Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder’s producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Eileen Felix. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey everyone, this is Nick Statt, senior producer on Decoder. We’re taking a brief publishing break while Nilay is out on vacation. We’ll resume regular programming next week, and we’ve got some great episodes in the works.  In the meantime, we wanted to share an episode from the excellent podcast The Gray Area, with host Sean Illing. In this one, Sean sat down with The Atlantic journalist Charlie Warzel to talk specifically about the state of the internet in 2026 — and what it means that it feels increasingly overrun by non-human actors.  Links:  The Gray Area with Sean Illing | Apple Podcasts Galaxy Brain | The Atlantic The internet is all bots now | The Gray Area (YouTube) How much of the internet is fake? Turns out, a lot of it, actually| New York Magazine How bots took over our lives | The New Yorker The ‘dead internet theory’ is real — and it’s killing the web | Fast Company The fanfare around the band Geese actually was a psyop | Wired Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Evan Smith, cofounder and CEO of Altana, was last on the show in early 2025 to talk about how Trump’s first few waves of tariffs were starting to affect global trade. It was a very alarming and also very illuminating chat; Evan and I got into the existential weeds of international relations and economics almost immediately. A year and a half later, and everything is somehow even more chaotic than it was the last time Evan and I talked — and that’s true about both trade and also the world of running a software company. Agentic AI, whack-a-mole tariff policy, war in Iran — we jumped right back into weeds yet again. Links:  How Trump’s tariff chaos is already changing global trade | Decoder Skydio CEO Adam Bry on not drawing red lines for drone use | Decoder Trump imposes new global tariffs, drawing protests from trading partners | Reuters Greer: USMCA Talks Could Stretch Into Next Year | Wall Street Journal Trump hits Canada with new 50% tariffs | Associated Press Iran weaponized the Strait of Hormuz. Now neighbors are going around it | CNN The Iran war is testing Southeast Asia’s faith in the US | Politico Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder’s producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Kabir Chopra. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Hayden Field, The Verge’s senior AI reporter, about the major trade secrets lawsuit between Apple and OpenAI, and what this tells us about OpenAI’s future.  Hayden has been covering OpenAI for years now, and she also just talked to a bunch of lawyers who specialize in intellectual property and trade secret law to get a sense of how serious this case is. The answer is not entirely positive for OpenAI. This legal battle could also affect OpenAI’s hardware plans, its forthcoming IPO, and its already-damaged reputation.  Links:  Sam Altman didn’t need another lawsuit | The Verge OpenAI’s first device will be moveable, screenless speaker | Bloomberg Apple sues OpenAI for allegedly stealing hardware secrets | The Verge The 6 wildest claims in Apple’s lawsuit against OpenAI | The Verge OpenAI is buying Jony Ive’s AI hardware company | The Verge Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dr. Jill Lepore is one of the best writers there is at identifying institutional patterns in history, and Decoder is a show about systems and organization — so her new book, The Rise and Fall of the Artificial State, is a perfect fit for the show. You build systems by measuring things — gathering information, quantifying it as data, and taking action on it. The book's big thesis is that this kind of systemic measurement is really a dehumanizing act, one that flattens humanity and human concerns into something, well, artificial. These artificial structures touch everything — not just in the more obvious places like in apps or AI, but all the way up to politics, governance, and the very future of the nation-state itself. Links:  The Artificial State | The New Yorker  ‘Terminator’ to tech titans: Jill Lepore on the ‘artificial state’ | Yale Univ. The failed ideas that drive Elon Musk | New York Times Sam Altman | The Joe Rogan Experience Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder’s producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Xander Adams. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We’ve got the first of a two-part series on the systems that run the world: I’m talking today with Bart Butler, the CTO of Proton, the company that makes private and secure productivity software. There’s a lot of big Decoder themes in this one. That includes how Proton has structured its ownership and architected its products to align its incentives with protecting users. At the same time, Proton faces new challenges and pressures, both at home in Switzerland and from the EU and US government that are putting its values to the test.  Links:  Proton now offers an entire bundle of office services | The Verge Proton Mail helped FBI unmask anonymous ‘Stop Cop City’ protester | 404Media Proton says it will leave Switzerland if this controversial law Is passed | Vice Age verification is a mess but we’re doing it anyway | The Verge Let’s build a children’s public internet | The Verge Let me see some ID: age verification is spreading across the internet | The Verge Why Chat Control 1.0 is the EU's most Orwellian law yet | Euronews Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Nvidia is obviously in the news constantly because of the AI boom — but it's also a major supplier to the entire auto industry As head of Nvidia's automotive division, Xinzhou Wu has a front-row seat to all the challenges EVs and autonomous vehicles are facing, especially in the US. And of course, you can’t talk about electric cars or vehicle autonomy in the US without talking about Elon Musk and Tesla. So I asked Xinzhou pretty directly if Tesla full self driving can actually do what Elon claims it will be able to do without using LiDAR. You tell me if you think his answer holds up. Links:  Nvidia’s head of autonomous driving opens up about his plans | The Verge Hyundai, Nissan, BYD, and Geely Join Nvidia’s Level 4 | MotorTrend Nvidia, auto suppliers roll out partnerships to rekindle self-driving  | Reuters Meet Alpamayo, Nvidia’s new AI model for autonomous cars | Forbes I tested Nvidia’s FSD competitor — Tesla should be worried | The Verge Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder’s producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt; this episode was edited by Xander Adams. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My guest today is Peter Kafka, chief correspondent at Business Insider and host of Channels, a podcast about the media industry. And it’s a big week for the media industry — Comcast just announced that it’s splitting itself up, into the Comcast broadband company and the NBCUniversal entertainment company. This dream, that you can combine distribution with big splashy entertainment properties, has failed time and again. But Comcast tried the content plus pipes strategy for longer than most. So Peter and I discussed what happened in the media and broadband industries over the last 15 years, and what might happen next.  Links:  Comcast is cutting NBCUniversal loose | Business Insider Comcast’s split could make or break Peacock | The Verge Comcast and NBCUniversal will go it alone. But for how long? | NYT Comcast split shows bigger is no longer better | Deadline A cable scion’s hardest deal yet: breaking up his family’s company | WSJ Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today I’m talking with Ali Berman and Raina Penchansky, who run the Creators Division at United Talent Agency. UTA is an enormous talent agency, and Ali and Raina's creators division represents some of the biggest creators and influencers in the world. So I really wanted to know how Raina and Ali identify up-and-coming talent, how they work with that talent to build durable businesses, and what the machinations of being a top creator actually look like in practice. Links:  The power brokers behind the $250B influencer economy | Wall Street Journal The Influencer Cliff | Carmen Vicente (TikTok) UTA Unveils Upscale Office for Creators | The Hollywood Reporter YouTube Stars Breach Hollywood’s Most Gilded Gate | New York Times CAA, TPG form holding company to acquire creator-led businesses | Variety How creator talent agencies are evolving into multi-platform operators | Digiday Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt; this episode was edited by Xander Adams. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We’ve got a special Decoder today. I had the chance to talk with Amy Lanzi, the CEO of Digitas North America, in front of a live audience at the Uber villa at the Cannes Lions advertising festival in the south of France. There’s a lot in this one on AI, the creator economy, and the future of marketing – like I said, Amy is as sharp as they come, and I really enjoy talking to her about how the money really works. Links:  The Influencer Cliff | Carmen Vicente (TikTok) The Wrong Promises | Publicis Groupe (YouTube) You can just tell the Instagram algorithm what you want now | The Verge How brands and creators are fighting for your attention and money | Decoder (2025) How influencers are changing advertising, with Digitas’ Amy Lanzi | Decoder (2024) Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It’s time for our annual Fourth of July grill episode here at Decoder, which is when we invite the CEOs of outdoor cooking companies onto the show to explain just how their businesses kind of look like every other business. And this is a very special edition.  Today we’re talking to Roger Dahle, the CEO of Weber Blackstone, a full circle moment for Decoder. Roger was our first-ever grill CEO on the show back when he was the CEO of just Blackstone. Five years later, Roger now runs one of his biggest competitors, after Blackstone announced a merger with Weber in 2024. So we talked about that process, and how Roger is managing the integration of these two grilling giants.  Links:  Weber and Blackstone to combine | The Verge How Blackstone became the darling of grill TikTok | Decoder (2021) How arson led to a culture reboot at Traeger, with CEO Jeremy Andrus | Decoder (2022) Big Green Egg CEO Dan Gertsacov on growing kamado cooking | Decoder (2024) How SharkNinja took over the home | Decoder (2025) Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Eileen Felix. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey everyone, Nilay here. You might remember I took a break from Decoder last year — we had a baby, so I took some leave. In my place, we had an excellent slate of guest hosts, and we’ve been working hard to bring you those episodes in full video since we launched our official Decoder YouTube channel. So today, we’re featuring a really great interview conducted by my very good friend Joanna Stern, now the founder and CEO of New Things, and Ford CEO Jim Farley. Joanna pulled some exclusive news out of Jim at the time, including some telling quotes on Trump’s tariff policy, on Ford competing with Chinese EVs, and the company's stance on Apple CarPlay.  Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  Ford CEO Jim Farley on China, tariffs, and the quest for a $30,000 EV | Decoder Joanna Stern is not a robot, but she lived with them | Decoder Ford's Jim Farley: 'I totally would’ve done it differently.’ | The Verge Ford pulls the plug on the all-electric F-150 Lightning pickup truck | NPR Inside the lab where Ford is trying to crack the code on cheap EVs | The Verge Ford is fighting against physics to build affordable EVs | The Verge Ford reveals breakthrough process for lower priced EVs | The Verge Ford CEO Jim Farley on building the electric F-150 | Decoder (2021) Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Kabir Chopra.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

A lot has changed on the internet, in the creator landscape, and at Patreon itself since CEO Jack Conte was last on the show in 2021. AI and platform shifts have stolen creator content and decimated artists' reach and revenue streams, and Patreon has made some pretty existential changes to the way it works in response.  Links:  My thoughts on AI | Patreon I tried to prove I’m not AI | Howtown Patreon: Apple’s 30% tax is the price of staying in the App Store | The Verge Welcome to hell, Elon (2022) | The Verge Reality is losing the deepfake war | Decoder Elon Musk is steamrolling Wall Street to become a trillionaire | Decoder Incorruptible | Simon & Schuster Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Xander Adams. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My guest today is Hayden Field, senior AI reporter for The Verge. Often when Hayden comes on the show, it’s because something has gone wrong in the world of AI. Last weekend, that something was a pretty intense mix of Anthropic, the Trump administration, and Anthropic’s new AI model, Fable 5.  Hayden actually just published a fantastic play-by-play on The Verge about how what went down, and the scramble through the weekend from both sides to figure out what exactly happened and how it might get resolved. So I wanted her to come on and just walk me through the timeline and what it all means. Links:  Inside the fight over Claude Mythos 5 | The Verge Anthropic cuts off Fable 5 and Mythos 5 access following government order | The Verge Anthropic got hit by export rules nobody understands | The Verge Anthropic’s safety superpower | Stratechery "They screwed us": Personality clashes sent Anthropic's models offline | Axios Anthropic’s call for AI nonproliferation | New York Times Trump signs exec order to review AI models before release | The Verge New Anthropic model finds security problems ‘in every major OS, browser’ | The Verge Subscribe to The Verge⁠ to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Slydio CEO Adam Bry, who runs the leading US maker of autonomous drones. We covered a lot in this conversation, including Skydio’s police and government work at a time when military use of AI is more controversial than ever and competing with Chinese drones against the backdrop of the Trump’s administration’s DJI ban. There’s a lot in this one – maybe more than anything, it was refreshing to hear Adam talk about using AI to bring even more people to work at Skydio as the company expands. I also got to fly a drone, which ruled. Links:  Sorry kid, drones are for war now | The Verge The FCC’s foreign drone ban is here | The Verge Skydio is pivoting to enterprise — its consumer drones are dead | The Verge Skydio commits $3.5B to expand US manufacturing | Skydio A US drone maker tries to take back the country’s skies | Bloomberg DEA looks to add Skydio, Parrot drones to its arsenal | FedScoop The future of border security isn’t at the border at all | The Verge Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey! Nilay here. It’s conference season, so I’m traveling across the country and around the world a lot more than usual. Stay tuned for some very special Decoder episodes we have coming up soon, starting on Monday.  In the meantime, I wanted to share a conversation between my friend Peter Kafka and Condé Nast CEO Roger Lynch on the excellent Channels podcast. Lynch says he’s told his teams to assume that traffic will be zero from now on — that’s what I’ve been calling Google Zero. Roger also shares his thoughts on AI, the growing influence of the creator economy, and more. Links:  Channels with Peter Kafka | Apple Podcasts Condé Nast CEO: Plan As If Search Traffic Will Be Zero | Search Engine Journal Sundar Pichai on AI, the future of search, and what’s happening to the web | Decoder Google Zero is here — now what? | Decoder Google admits the open web is in ‘rapid decline’ | The Verge Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today I’m talking with Mustafa Suleyman, the CEO of Microsoft AI. This is a real burner of an episode. We covered everything from his approach to training new models to his criticisms of Anthropic talking about Claude as though it is conscious.  Of course, we also talked about Microsoft’s relationship with OpenAI, how Mustafa is thinking about all the negative polling and political pushback around AI right now, and whether any of the consumer products are good enough to overcome it. Like I said, it’s a burner. Links:  Microsoft and OpenAI broke up — now they’re ready to fight | The Verge Microsoft Build 2026: The 7 biggest announcements | The Verge Microsoft’s first advanced reasoning AI is here | The Verge Microsoft’s new ‘superintelligence’ game plan is all about business | The Verge Here’s how the new Microsoft and OpenAI deal breaks down | The Verge Microsoft AI chief says 18 months until white-collar tasks automated by AI | FT Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My guest today is Ryan Mac, a technology reporter at The New York Times and co-author of the excellent book Character Limit: How Elon Musk Destroyed Twitter, which came out in 2024. I wanted to have Ryan on today because we’re on the cusp of the SpaceX IPO, which promises to be one of the most consequential public offerings in history for a variety of reasons.  Its biggest-ever size, of course, at nearly $2 trillion dollars. But also because all kinds of rules that keep our markets fair are being bent, if not outright broken, along the way. And, also because buried somewhere inside SpaceX is X, the social platform formerly known as Twitter, which Musk purchased in 2022. Links:  Welcome to hell, Elon | The Verge The SpaceX IPO is great for Elon Musk and terrible for you | The Verge In SpaceX’s IPO, Elon Musk is the risk factor | The Verge For Wall Street, the only thing worse than SpaceX flopping is missing out | NYT How SpaceX Is structured to favor Elon Musk | NYT As the SpaceX hype machine steamrolls ahead, Wall Street jumps aboard | NYT The SpaceX IPO Reveals What Really Happened to Twitter | NY Mag Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I last talked to Recording Academy CEO Harvey Mason Jr in 2024 — when it was obvious that generative AI would upend the music industry, but not exactly clear how that would happen. Now, Harvey says AI is “omnipresent” in music production. So what kinds of tools are musicians using, in what way, and what kind of music is it making for us? Is it any good? And how do we identify, and take care of, actual human musicians in this mess? Links:  Why the Grammys need to change, with CEO Harvey Mason Jr | Decoder Is ‘blue dot fever’ a real problem for the concert industry? | Los Angeles Times USA v. LiveNation-Ticketmaster: All the news | The Verge The future of country music is here, and it’s AI | The Verge Poll: AI is transforming how we think about music | Hollywood Reporter Inside the ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ era of AI in music | Rolling Stone Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices