Decoder with Nilay Patel

Siemens is one of those absolutely giant, extremely important, fairly opaque companies we love to dig into on Decoder. At a very basic, reductive level, Siemens makes the hardware and software that let other companies run and automate their stuff. We spent a lot of time talking about what happens to jobs when Siemens automates everything — and what happens to a company like Siemens when the free trade era we’re used to gets turned on its head. Links:  Siemens Energy CEO attends Trump meeting at Davos | Reuters PepsiCo, Siemens, Nvidia announce digital twin collaboration | PepsiCo Siemens spins off Healthineers majority stake | Reuters Siemens USA to train 200,000 electricians by 2030 | Siemens Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, we’re going to talk about reality, and whether we can label photos and videos to protect our shared understanding of the world around us. To do this, I sat down with Verge reporter Jess Weatherbed, who covers creative tools for us — a space that’s been totally upended by generative AI. We’ve been talking about how the photos and videos taken by our phones are getting more and more processed for years on The Verge. Here in 2026, we’re in the middle of a full-on reality crisis, as fake and manipulated ultra-believable images and videos flood onto social platforms at scale. So Jess and I discussed the limitations of AI labeling standards like C2PA, and why social media execs like Instagram boss Adam Mosseri are now sounding the alarm.  Links:  This system can sort real pictures from AI fakes — why aren’t we using it? | The Verge You can’t trust your eyes to tell you what’s real, says Instagram | The Verge Instagram’s boss is missing the point about AI on the platform | The Verge Sora is showing us how broken deepfake detection is | The Verge Reality still matters | The Verge No one’s ready for this | The Verge What is a photo, @WhiteHouse edition | The Verge Google Gemini is getting better at identifying AI fakes | The Verge Let’s compare Apple, Google & Samsung’s definitions of 'photo’ | The Verge The Pixel 8 and the what-is-a-photo apocalypse | The Verge Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Allan Thygesen, who is the CEO of Docusign. You know Docusign, it’s the platform that lets you sign stuff online. It turns out 7,000 people work there, which is one of those facts floating around that’s always felt like perfect Decoder bait. What are all those people doing? And what kind of product roadmap does a company like Docusign even need? Alan has only been CEO of Docusign for three years, so he has some interesting perspective on where the company was, the changes he wanted to make, and where he thinks this is all going. Hint: it involves AI.  Links:  Docusign's AI will help you understand what you're signing | Fast Company Docusign on ‘transformational journey,’ CEO Says | Bloomberg How Docusign Is modernizing the age-old business contract | Barron’s Docusign unveils next-gen eSignature with AI | Docusign Docusign brings its contract AI to ChatGPT | Docusign Interview with Docusign CEO Allan Thygesen | Motley Fool (Podcast) Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, we’re talking about the bidding war over Warner Bros. Discovery, which is the biggest story in the entertainment industry right now, and for good reason. It has pretty much everything you could want in a buzzy Hollywood saga — big names, big money, and big drama. To help me make sense of it all, I wanted to talk with Julia Alexander, a Verge alum and now media correspondent at Puck News who’s one of the best in the business at analyzing corporate strategy, Hollywood, and what’s next in entertainment. Julia really helped me break down why Netflix is the clear front runner to acquire Warner Bros., why David Ellison of Paramount Skydance is so desperate to win, and, perhaps most importantly, how the tech industry fits into this puzzle. Links:  Netflix is buying Warner Bros. for $83 billion | The Verge Paramount launches hostile $108 billion bid to snatch Warner | The Verge Netflix revises Warner Bros. bid to an all-cash offer | The Verge Why Netflix needs Warner Bros. | Puck News The Warner Bros. bidding war Is over | Bloomberg The Son King of Hollywood | Vulture FCC Chair: ‘Legitimate competition concerns’ with Netflix’s Warner deal | Variety Netflix's Ted Sarandos to testify at antitrust hearing over Warner deal | Variety Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Experian is one of those giant multinationals convoluted enough to have multiple CEOs all over the world, so first I asked Alex Lintner, Experian's CEO of technology and software solutions, to dig into the classic Decoder questions and explain how all of that even works. He oversees big operations like security and privacy, and now, of course, AI. If you want to participate in the modern economy — rent an apartment, buy a car, get a job, etc  — you’re part of Experian’s ecosystem, whether you like it or not. At its heart, Experian’s core service is data about people and the choices they make. And this extremely valuable data weirdly makes Experian a part of your life  — a life that becomes much smoother if the data the company collects about you tells a good story.  Links:  Roughly half of Americans are knowledgeable about personal finance | Pew Research How Americans view data privacy | Pew Research Consumer voices on credit reports and scores | CFPB Mercedes-Benz CEO Ola Källenius on Decoder | The Verge The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods to raid | 404 Media T-Mobile customers exposed in major Experian breach (2015) | The Verge All the news about the Equifax breach | The Verge Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Grok, the chatbot made by Elon Musk’s xAI, is able to make all manner of AI-generated images on demand, including non-consensual intimate images of women and minors. It's the kind of "controversy" that would have completely sunk a platform five or 10 years ago, but now it seems clear that Elon wants Grok to be able to do this. A lot of people feel like someone should be able to do something about a one-click harassment machine like this. But who has that power, and what they can do with it, is a deeply complicated question,tied up in the thorny mess of history that is content moderation and the legal precedents that underpin it. So I invited Riana Pfefferkorn, from the Stanford Institute for Human-Centered Artificial Intelligence, to come talk me through it. Links:  Grok’s gross AI deepfakes problem | The Verge Grok is undressing children — can the law stop it? | The Verge Tim Cook and Sundar Pichai are cowards | The Verge Senate passes a bill to let nonconsensual deepfake victims sue | The Verge EU looks to ban nudification apps following Grok outrage | Politico Grok flooded X with millions of sexualized images | The New York Times The Supreme Court just upended internet law | The Verge Mother of Elon Musk’s son sues xAI over sexual deepfake images | AP Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We’re back to start the year with a very special live interview with Razer CEO Min-Liang Tan, which we taped in front of a terrific audience at Brooklyn Bowl in Las Vegas during CES. At this year’s show, Razer made headlines for something it calls Project Ava, an AI companion that has a physical presence in the real world, as an anime hologram that sits in a jar on your desk. It’s powered by, you guessed it, Elon Musk’s Grok.  There are a whole lot of choices bundled up in all of that, as well as Razer’s decision to go all-in on AI at a moment when the gaming community is outright rejecting it. So Min and I really got into it. I think you’ll have a lot to think about with this one.  Links:  Razer is making an AI anime waifu hologram for your desk | The Verge Razer thinks you’d rather have AI headphones instead of glasses | The Verge Baldur’s Gate 3 studio says it won’t use AI for concept art or writing | The Verge In 2025, AI became a lightning rod for gamers and devs | The Verge Razer plans $600M push to capture 'untapped' AI gaming demand | Bloomberg Replika CEO says it’s okay if we end up marrying AI chatbots | Decoder Lawsuits blame ChatGPT for suicides and harmful delusions | NYT Inside three longterm relationships with AI chatbots | NYT Torment Nexus | Know Your Meme The future of gaming is AI | Razer (Instagram) Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey everyone, it’s Nilay. We’re settling back in here after the winter break and CES, and we’ll have new episodes for you starting next Monday. In the meantime, we wanted to highlight one of our favorites from last year: an interview with journalist and author Megan Greenwell about her book Bad Company: Private Equity and the Death of the American Dream. My conversation with Megan last year was extremely illuminating as to why private equity does what it does to industries like healthcare, media and real estate — and just how deeply it's affecting the everyday lives of Americans everywhere. It's a really great conversation that feels just as timely today as it did last summer. Enjoy.  Links:  Bad Company | HarperCollins How private equity kills companies and communities | Decoder Private equity bought out your doctor and bankrupted Toys ‘R’ Us | Decoder Private equity makes its first college sports play | Axios Private equity Is gutting America — and getting away with it | NYT I was fired from Deadspin for refusing to ‘stick to sports’ | NYT Will private equity be the next ‘Big Short’? | Marketplace The profit-obsessed monster destroying American ERs | Vox Why your vet bill is so high | The Atlantic The investment firms leave behind a barren wasteland’ | Politico Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Verge senior AI reporter Hayden Field about some of the people responsible for studying AI and deciding in what ways it might… well, ruin the world. Those folks work at Anthropic as part of a group called the societal impacts team, which Hayden just spent time with for a profile she published this week on The Verge.  The team is just nine people out of more than 2,000 who work at Anthropic, and their only job, as the team members themselves say, is to investigate and publish quote "inconvenient truths” about AI. That of course brings up a whole host of problems, the most important of which is whether this team can remain independent, or even exist at all, as it publicizes findings about Anthropic's own products that might be unflattering or even politically fraught.  Links:  It’s their job to keep AI from destroying everything | The Verge Anthropic details how it measures Claude’s wokeness | The Verge White House orders tech companies to make AI bigoted again | The Verge Chaos and lies: Why Sam Altman was booted from OpenAI | The Verge How Elon Musk Is remaking Grok in his image | NYT Anthropic tries to defuse White House backlash | Axios  New AI battle: White House vs. Anthropic | Axios Anthropic will pursue gulf state investments after all | Wired Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Okay, let’s talk about AI and what I’ve been calling the “DoorDash problem.” This is about to define the next battle in AI, and it might completely transform not only how you order a sandwich, but also how the entire internet economy works in general. If you’ve been listening to the show this past year, you’ve heard me bring up the Doordash problem nearly a dozen times. I’ve been asking CEOs and leaders in tech and AI about it any chance I can get. Now, a lawsuit between Amazon and Perplexity is bringing this exact issue to the forefront, kicking off a major AI browser fight that could define the future of agents and the web itself.  Links:  Amazon and Perplexity have kicked off the great AI web browser fight | The Verge Amazon sues to stop Perplexity from using AI tool to buy stuff | Bloomberg Amazon's Cease and Desist letter to Perplexity | Amazon Bullying Is not innovation | Perplexity Amazon gets hit by a Comet | Platformer Humans Only! Why Amazon doesn’t want AI shoppers | NY Mag Amazon vs Perplexity: the AI agent war has arrived | The Guardian Amazon ad revenue soars 24 percent to $17.7 billion | THR Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Jamie Simonoff, founder of Ring, won't let me call him the CEO. He says his title is and always has been 'chief inventor.' His mission with Ring is to make the world safer, and he has a pretty expansive view of what that means. He told The Verge last month he thought Ring could 'almost zero out crime' in some neighborhoods within a year or two. That's a big promise — and also potentially a very troubling one, as we face the erosion of privacy and a surveillance panopticon that only ever seems to expand. Links:  Ring CEO: Cameras can almost ‘zero out crime’ within 12 months | The Verge Ring plans to scan everyone’s face at the door | The Washington Post Ring’s Search Party is on by default; should you opt out? | The Verge Ring now works with video surveillance company Flock | The Verge US spy agencies getting a one-stop shop to buy personal data | The Intercept Do Video Doorbells Really Prevent Crime? | Scientific American Ding Dong: How Ring went from Shark Tank Reject to Everyone’s Front Door | Amazon Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

So a lot of people think AI is a bubble. So we sent Verge senior reporter Liz Lopatto out to report on the AI bubble  — whether it's real, how it might pop, and what all of this means.She’s joining the show today to talk about a particular company that sits right in the middle of all of it. That company is called CoreWeave, and Liz has spent considerable time diving into its history, its financials, and the truly fascinating story that all of that tells us about the modern AI boom. Links:  CoreWeave CEO plays down concerns about AI-spending bubble | WSJ Why debt funding is ratcheting up the risks of the AI boom | NYT Inside the data centers that train AI and drain the electrical grid | The New Yorker How a crypto miner transformed Into the multibillion-dollar backbone of AI | Wired CoreWeave signs $14 billion AI infrastructure deal with Meta | Reuters CoreWeave, Nvidia sign $6.3 billion cloud computing capacity order | Reuters Nvidia turned CoreWeave into major player in AI years before saving its IPO | CNBC CoreWeave inks $6.5 billion deal with OpenAI | CNBC ‘Project Osprey:’ How Nvidia seeded CoreWeave’s rise | The Information For this startup, Nvidia GPUs are currency | The Verge Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with a very special guest: Sir Tim Berners-Lee, the inventor of the World Wide Web. Tim is a legend in the history of the internet. He created HTML and HTTP. It doesn’t really get more foundational than that — Tim was there at the very very beginning of the modern internet. He also has a new memoir out called This Is For Everyone: The Unfinished Story of the World Wide Web. So Tim joined the show to talk about the state of the web, as well as his current work at the decentralization startup Inrupt, and, of course, where AI fits into the conversation.  Links:  This Is For Everyone | Macmillan The Semantic Web | W3C Tim Berners-Lee invented the web, now wants to save it | The New Yorker Why I gave the world wide web away for free | The Guardian Amazon, Perplexity kick off the great AI web browser fight | The Verge Web War III | The Verge Google admits the open web is in ‘rapid decline’ | The Verge Cloudflare will now block AI crawlers by default | The Verge Subscribe to The Verge⁠ to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I’m Joanna Stern, the senior personal tech columnist at The Wall Street Journal, and this is my final Decoder episode filling in for Nilay while he’s out on parental leave. My guest today: Rivian CEO RJ Scaringe. This is RJ’s third time on the show, and it felt like the perfect follow-up to my conversation last week with Ford CEO Jim Farley. I loved the idea of going straight from Ford to Rivian. And if you listened to the Farley episode, this one flows nicely. RJ and I cover a lot of the same challenges: tariffs, China, EV pricing. Of course, I also asked about CarPlay.  Read the full transcript on The Verge. Links:  A pretty fascinating look under the hood of the Rivan R2 | The Verge Rivian CEO says CarPlay isn’t going to happen | The Verge Rivian CEO RJ Scaringe says too many carmakers are copying Tesla | Decoder Rivian CEO RJ Scaringe isn't scared of the Cybertruck | Decoder Rivian breaks ground on $5 billion Georgia plant | AP Rivian narrows 2025 delivery guidance Q3 as production slips | WSJ Rivian R2 remains on track for $45,000 and 2026 production | Car and Driver Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices