Overview of #661 - John Kiriakou
In this episode, Theo Von talks with former CIA officer and whistleblower John Kiriakou about his career in intelligence, the CIA’s post-9/11 shift toward torture and covert killing, his prison experience after speaking out, and his new book on CIA skills and tradecraft. The conversation also branches into U.S. politics, foreign influence, Israel/Gaza, surveillance, AI, and whether America can return to a more principled version of itself.
Key Discussion Points
CIA recruitment, tradecraft, and career path
- Kiriakou explains how he was recruited into the CIA while in graduate school at George Washington University.
- He describes an undercover professor who turned out to be a CIA officer looking for candidates who fit the agency’s culture.
- He talks about how much of CIA work depends on memory, attention to detail, and writing convincing operational cables.
- He shares early-career stories of doing liaison work, intelligence briefings, and learning surveillance/detection techniques.
9/11 changed the CIA permanently
- Kiriakou says 9/11 transformed the agency from an intelligence-gathering service into one focused on killing targets.
- He describes the post-9/11 environment as one where “kill them all” became the mindset in some offices.
- He says the agency’s rules were effectively loosened after 9/11 and that the U.S. shifted toward a global assassination model.
Torture, interrogations, and the whistleblower fight
- He says the CIA had no real training in interrogation when detainees started arriving.
- He details harsh techniques he says were used, including:
- sleep deprivation
- cold-cell treatment
- sensory deprivation
- forced nudity and humiliation
- rectal feeding
- He argues the torture program was illegal, immoral, and ultimately ineffective because information obtained under torture is not reliable or admissible.
- Theo and Kiriakou discuss how the CIA’s torture program became one of the central scandals of the post-9/11 era.
9/11 intelligence, Saudi Arabia, and unresolved questions
- Kiriakou says the CIA had warning signs before 9/11, but not enough to prevent the attacks.
- He claims there were serious intelligence failures and suggests Saudi-linked money and influence were part of the larger story.
- He also argues the U.S. still has not fully answered key questions about 9/11.
- He makes a controversial claim that Israeli intelligence may have had advance warning but did not share all details; he frames this as his view, not proven fact.
Prison, prosecution, and life after the CIA
- Kiriakou discusses being prosecuted after confirming the CIA torture program to the media.
- He says he went to prison for telling the truth and that the case was meant to punish whistleblowing.
- He shares prison stories, including interactions with mobsters, violent inmates, and how prison life taught him survival lessons.
- He says his family, especially his ex-wife, stood by him during that period.
Foreign influence, AIPAC, Israel, and U.S. politics
- A large portion of the conversation turns to U.S.-Israel relations.
- Kiriakou argues that:
- AIPAC and pro-Israel donors have outsized influence in U.S. politics.
- Members of Congress are pressured through primaries and campaign money.
- The U.S. government is too unwilling to challenge Israeli interests.
- He and Theo discuss Gaza, genocide accusations, media silence, and the killing of journalists such as Shireen Abu Akleh.
- He says the U.S. and Israel have deep intelligence and military cooperation, and he worries about increasing integration of the two countries’ defense systems.
Surveillance, AI, and data collection
- Kiriakou says the U.S. intelligence state has become far more invasive since the post-9/11 era.
- He discusses:
- NSA/CIA data collection on Americans
- national security letters
- giant data centers
- the Utah storage facility often associated with mass surveillance concerns
- He warns that avoiding surveillance now requires almost total withdrawal from modern technology.
- He also expresses concern about AI and says many people don’t actually want it, but are being pushed toward it by powerful interests.
Notable Anecdotes
George McGovern story
- Kiriakou tells a story about meeting George McGovern as a student and helping organize a presidential announcement event at George Washington University.
- He uses it to illustrate how political parties changed over time, especially the Democratic Party’s move toward superdelegates and insider control.
Surveillance in Pakistan
- One of the most memorable stories involves Kiriakou noticing he was under surveillance in Pakistan.
- He says he was prepared to kill the surveillance officer if necessary, underscoring how dangerous the work could be.
- He also describes using surveillance-detection techniques from his CIA training.
Recruitment by dog-walking
- He shares a classic espionage anecdote where he used a borrowed dog to bump into a target repeatedly and eventually recruit him.
- The story highlights how personal relationships and routine can be used in intelligence operations.
Main Takeaways
- Kiriakou sees himself as a patriot and a whistleblower, not a traitor.
- His central critique is that the U.S. abandoned its own laws and values after 9/11.
- He believes torture, secrecy, and unchecked intelligence power corrode American democracy.
- He is deeply skeptical of foreign influence in U.S. politics, especially related to Israel and Saudi Arabia.
- He thinks most Americans are rightly uneasy about surveillance, AI, and the direction of the country.
Projects Mentioned
- New book: The Ultimate Guide to CIA Skills, Tactics, and Techniques
- Podcast: John Kiriakou’s Briefing Room
- Existing podcast: John Kiriakou’s Dead Drop
Final Thought
The episode is part spy-story, part political critique, and part whistleblower testimony. Kiriakou presents a bleak view of post-9/11 America, but he also argues that the country can still recover its ideals if people push back against torture, surveillance, corruption, and permanent war.