#2392 - John Kiriakou

Summary of #2392 - John Kiriakou

by Joe Rogan

2h 35m•October 10, 2025
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Summary — #2392: John Kiriakou (Joe Rogan Experience)

Overview

Former CIA officer John Kiriakou appears on Joe Rogan’s podcast to recount his CIA career, his refusal to participate in the CIA’s post‑9/11 “enhanced interrogation” (torture) program, his role in the capture of Abu Zubaydah, subsequent whistleblowing, prosecution and imprisonment, and his views on intelligence culture, accountability, misinformation, and geopolitics (Israel/Palestine, China, Iran). The conversation mixes first‑hand operational detail, legal/political fallout, and reflections on institutional problems within the U.S. national‑security apparatus.

Key points & main takeaways

  • Career & capture

    • Kiriakou spent ~13 years in the CIA; after 9/11 he led counterterrorism operations in Pakistan. In February 2002 he helped capture Abu Zubaydah after a six‑week hunt.
    • On return to HQ (May 2002) he was asked whether he wanted to be trained in “enhanced interrogation techniques” — a term he had not heard before — and declined on moral, legal, and safety grounds. He was the only one among 14 asked to say no.

  • The torture program (practices, contractors, consequences)

    • Techniques described: waterboarding, prolonged sleep deprivation (authorized up to 12 days), “cold cell” (stripping, chaining to an eye‑bolt, chilling cell and pouring ice water hourly), “belly slap,” sensory assault (lights, loud music), stress positions, and use of drugs (truth serums, sedatives).
    • Kiriakou reports multiple deaths directly attributed to these techniques (e.g., hypothermia from cold cell; deaths during sleep deprivation), and medical staff sometimes revived prisoners to continue interrogation.
    • The program was overseen by the CIA after a legal clearance process; contractors James Mitchell and Bruce Jessen were paid roughly $108 million to design the program.
    • Kiriakou asserts the techniques were ineffective and counterproductive: effective interrogation work (and actionable intelligence) in Abu Zubaydah’s case came from FBI techniques (Ali Soufan) prior to CIA torture. When CIA took over and applied torture, the detainee went silent.

  • Institutional culture & “deep state”

    • He describes long‑tenured intelligence officers who believe they outlast presidents and can slow‑roll or resist directives. He labels this unelected, unaccountable layer as the “deep state” or federal bureaucracy.
    • He recounts being marginalized professionally after refusing to be trained; being pressured, sidelined, and ultimately targeted politically.

  • Whistleblowing, prosecution, and prison

    • After leaving the CIA and later the Senate staff, Kiriakou gave an ABC interview in 2007 exposing the torture program. The CIA filed a crimes report against him; the FBI investigated and declined prosecution initially.
    • Under Obama/Brennan years he was later charged (eventually under the Intelligence Identities Protection Act) in a high‑profile case. He pleaded guilty to one count, was sentenced to 30 months, served 23 months, and lost his pension and much of his finances. He estimates the government spent ~$6 million on his prosecution and incarceration.
    • He details prison life (assigned to low/medium security but placed with violent offenders, threats, survival tactics, solidarity with other inmates) and the psychological and financial damage of conviction.

  • Aftermath & advocacy

    • Post‑release he became an author, columnist, speaker, and advocate for transparency and whistleblower protections. He secured Greek citizenship and helped Greece draft a whistleblower protection law later adopted by the EU.
    • He is pursuing a presidential pardon with several public figures and reportedly has received a statement of “no objection” from CIA director John Ratcliffe.
    • Kiriakou has shifted politically toward alliances across the aisle on civil‑liberties issues.

  • Broader concerns: law enforcement, media, misinformation, and geopolitics

    • Criticizes FBI tactics: entrapment, career incentives to create arrests, high‑stakes sting operations that manufacture crimes (examples discussed include certain domestic terrorism stings and January 6th provocations).
    • Warns about propaganda tools and legal changes (NDAA language expanding government communications), AI/bots and ChatGPT misinformation, and foreign influence (AIPAC, FARA issues).
    • Views on geopolitics: cautious optimism about recent Gaza ceasefire; concern about Netanyahu’s domestic politics; sees greater long‑term strategic risk from China than from any single Middle East conflict.

Notable quotes & insights

  • “Let’s call a spade a spade. This is a torture program.”
  • “Torture is a slippery slope… somebody’s going to be a cowboy… and then somebody’s going to go to prison.” (Ironically, Kiriakou became the one imprisoned.)
  • “We killed people with that technique.” (Referring to cold‑cell hypothermia and other methods.)
  • About FBI interrogations: “If there’s one thing the FBI is really good at, it’s interrogations.”
  • On internal power: “There is a deep state… unelected and generally unaccountable.”
  • On prosecution pressure: “Take this deal… and you may live to meet your grandchildren.” (Kiriakou describing a prosecutor’s pressure tactic.)
  • Cultural line: “If you want a friend in Washington, get a dog.”

Topics discussed (high‑level list)

  • CIA counterterrorism operations after 9/11 (Pakistan, Abu Zubaydah)
  • “Enhanced interrogation techniques” (waterboarding, cold cell, sleep deprivation, sensory assault, drugs)
  • MKUltra references and destroyed documentation
  • Effectiveness of torture vs. traditional FBI interrogation (Ali Soufan)
  • Contractors Mitchell & Jessen ($108M)
  • Internal CIA politics and John Brennan’s role
  • Whistleblowing, ABC interview (2007), legal retaliation, IIPA/Espionage statutes
  • Prison experience and sentencing details
  • Post‑prison career: books, teaching, advocacy, Greek citizenship, EU whistleblower law
  • Efforts to obtain a presidential pardon; public support and endorsements
  • FBI tactics, entrapment, and examples of manufactured plots
  • January 6th — role of government informants/agents and proportionality of charges
  • Media failure, propaganda, NDAA provisions, and foreign influence (AIPAC, FARA)
  • AI, bots, ChatGPT misinformation and content fabrication
  • Israel/Palestine war: ceasefire, Netanyahu’s politics, settler issues and Israeli domestic protests
  • China as strategic long‑term threat; diplomacy and geopolitics

Action items & recommendations (from implications of the conversation)

  • For policymakers / advocates:

    • Strengthen and protect whistleblower laws (domestic and internationally).
    • Enforce clear prohibitions and oversight against torture and abusive interrogation; hold accountable contractors and officials who authorized lethal/illegal techniques.
    • Reassess prosecutorial use of espionage and IIPA statutes to avoid weaponizing classification against whistleblowers.
    • Review FBI sting/entrapment practices, with emphasis on proportionality and avoiding manufactured crimes.
    • Require transparency and stricter enforcement of foreign‑agent registration rules (FARA) and examine lobbying rules (questions raised about AIPAC).
    • Revisit NDAA and other statutes that expand propaganda or allow domestic information operations by the government.

  • For journalists / media consumers:

    • Support independent investigative reporting and be skeptical of mainstream narratives; verify through multiple sources.
    • Demand release and scrutiny of relevant oversight reports (e.g., Senate torture report) and classified materials where public interest outweighs legitimate secrecy.
    • Be vigilant about AI‑generated misinformation — cross‑check claims, especially when sourced by chatbots.

  • For the public / civic actors:

    • Advocate for pardons or legal redress where prosecution appears politically motivated.
    • Support protections for government employees who expose wrongdoing.
    • Encourage political accountability for long‑standing unelected institutional practices; push for congressional oversight.

  • Practical follow‑ups:

    • Read the Senate torture/oversight reports and Kiriakou’s books for deeper primary detail.
    • Monitor ongoing pardon efforts and related public petitions if interested in advocacy.

Further resources mentioned (suggested)

  • Kiriakou’s books (he discusses multiple books and a prison memoir)
  • Senate Intelligence Committee report on CIA detention and interrogation (the “Senate torture report”)
  • Reporting/authors referenced: Ali Soufan’s work, Amos on Mitchell & Jessen contracting
  • Background on MKUltra (historical CIA program)

This episode is a detailed first‑person account of controversial post‑9/11 U.S. intelligence practices and their personal and institutional consequences. It mixes operational anecdotes, legal drama, and broader reflections about accountability, misinformation, and foreign policy — useful for anyone studying ethics in intelligence, whistleblower law, or contemporary U.S. national‑security culture.