Overview of Jonathan Karl: The White House Chaos Is Worse This Time (The Bulwark Podcast)
Tim Miller interviews Jonathan Karl (ABC News chief Washington correspondent, co-anchor of This Week) about Karl’s new book Retribution: Donald Trump and the Campaign that Changed America, current White House dynamics in Trump’s second term, and several reporting scoops and anecdotes from the campaign, transition, and early months in office. The conversation centers on institutional breakdowns, personnel and ethics questions inside Trump’s orbit, the politicization of information (Epstein files, classified documents), and how Trump’s temperament and style shape governance.
Main takeaways
- Skepticism about Trump’s promise to “release everything we’re legally allowed to” on the Epstein/DOJ files: Karl argues Trump could have released material earlier, and “legally allowed” is a loophole likely to produce cherry-picked or redacted dumps rather than full transparency.
- Information trust is fractured: even if the Justice Department released files, public belief in official sources is low—part of a broader “war on truth.”
- Second-term White House = different kind of chaos: fewer public leaks and a smoother internal machine, but with far weaker guardrails (White House counsel largely sidelined, ethics offices gutted). That yields more consequential, less-checked decisions.
- Corrosive patronage and influence networks: outside actors (e.g., Boris Epshteyn) operate with outsized access and influence without formal White House accountability; money and favors circulate more widely than in the first term.
- Pardons and personnel decisions show informal, sometimes chaotic decision-making: external MAGA advisers and activists can steer clemency choices; trusted aides press for appointments as personal favors.
- Personal anecdotes illuminate Trump’s temperament: private calls that are browbeating or performative (“say my name”), public insults of reporters (“quiet piggy”), and obsession with symbolic victories (crowd sizes, trophies).
Topics discussed
Epstein files and the discharge petition
- Trump’s public pledge to release what’s “legally permissible” is described as legalistic and evasive.
- Karl notes the administration has actively worked to block disclosure (congressional obstruction, pressure on members).
- The likely outcome: partial, politicized disclosures aimed at embarrassing opponents, not full transparency.
Trust in institutions and the “war on truth”
- Karl and Miller discuss how conspiracy theories and politicized narratives have eroded public trust in official information — making disclosure less likely to change minds.
- Examples of conspiratorial disbelief (e.g., Butler crowd photo deniers, satellite vote-flipping theories) illustrate the point.
Trump’s behavior toward press and private contacts
- Anecdotes: Trump calling Karl, browbeating him after an on-air segment; calling reporters “piggy” during a plane exchange; implying reporters could be prosecuted.
- Karl’s view: this is both performative and dangerous — it normalizes threats to press freedom and uses government power as leverage.
White House internal dynamics and personnel
- Fewer leaks but more concentrated power; staff are not acting as traditional institutional checks.
- White House counsel and legal review often bypassed — story about legal review of an international agreement not involving counsel.
- Office of Government Ethics and inspector general roles gutted or staffed by partisan allies; examples of odd temporary leaders.
Classified documents and “battle plans”
- Karl reports Susie Wiles told investigators she regretted not being more active in recovering classified documents and that she was shown a “battle plan” (this matches an indictment reference to a PAC official shown classified material).
- Trump allegedly used some classified materials as scrap paper — symbol of casual handling of sensitive documents.
Boris Epshteyn and influence operations
- Reporting on Boris: alleged attempts to shake down potential cabinet members for payment; a memo (from campaign counsel Dave Warrington) recommended cutting contact with Boris to avoid scandal.
- Despite episodes where he was “on the outs,” Boris remains an influential outside operator — often on Air Force One/Marine One — coordinating legal and political maneuvers.
Pardons, clemency decision-making, and influence
- Trump moved toward broad January 6 pardons; advice came from outside figures (Charlie Kirk, Julie Kelly) overruling reasonable internal pushback (e.g., J.D. Vance).
- Pardon power remains largely unchecked and can be influenced by political allies and donors.
Money, patronage, and ethics
- More money and transactional behavior in the second term: crypto deals, foreign gifts (e.g., Qatar jet storyline), potential profiteering by associates and family.
- The dismantling or politicizing of oversight offices creates space for more graft and ethically dubious arrangements.
Biden–Obama friction and intra-Democratic tensions
- Karl recounts an incident where Biden and Obama were in the same restaurant (Cafe Milano) but did not greet each other; Biden reportedly didn’t take an Obama call after dropping out of the 2024 race.
- Hunter Biden’s grievances with the Obamas are noted; Karl points to factional tensions inside the Democratic coalition.
Notable quotes and vivid anecdotes
- On Epstein files: “They’ll release everything that they’re legally entitled to have” — Karl calls this a legalistic dodge.
- Reporter exchange: Trump allegedly told a female Bloomberg reporter on the plane “quiet piggy.”
- “Say my name” moment: Karl compares a private call with Trump the morning after the 2016-like victory to Walter White demanding recognition — Trump wanted to hear congratulations and bask.
- Susie Wiles admitted to investigators she “should have been more active” in getting documents returned; she was reportedly shown classified “battle plans.”
- Boris Epshteyn scene: a campaign memo urged Trump to “cease all contact” with Boris to avoid scandal, yet Boris regained access and influence.
Book highlights (from Retribution, per the interview)
- Investigative detail about the campaign, transition, and inner-circle decisions that Karl says will matter to future historians.
- Insights on how informal power, personal loyalty, and weakened institutions shaped decisions in the second Trump term.
- Specific reporting on classified documents, Susie Wiles’ cooperation with investigators, and the role of outside political operators.
Why this matters
- The second-term White House Karl describes is less leaky but more insulated from legal and ethical constraints, increasing the risk that consequential decisions will be made without institutional checks.
- Public distrust in official disclosures blunts accountability — even full release of documents may not restore credibility.
- The personalized, transactional nature of governance (pardon politics, patronage, crypto and foreign deals, outside operatives) raises long-term questions about corruption, rule-of-law, and the role of oversight institutions.
Quick reference / action items
- Read Jonathan Karl’s Retribution for the full reporting and context referenced in this interview.
- Expect a follow-up Bulwark episode with Kamala Harris (Tim Miller noted an upcoming interview).
- Watch for congressional or DOJ developments around the Epstein files, classified documents, and any probes into transitional conduct — these are central themes in Karl’s reporting.
Final note
Karl frames his book and reporting as an attempt to preserve an accurate record amid ongoing attempts to rewrite recent political history. The interview mixes immediate political analysis (Epstein files, pardons, staffing) with vivid, often personal reporting that illustrates how Trump’s style and choice of advisers shape governance in less-checked ways than before.