Overview of Making Sense with Sam Harris — “#495 — Foreign Policy for Sale”
In this episode, Sam Harris speaks with journalist and historian Anne Applebaum about what she sees as a major transformation in U.S. foreign policy under Trump: not just incompetence or isolationism, but a deliberate, ideological project that weakens institutions, sidelines expertise, and uses American power to advance corruption, personal enrichment, and authoritarian-friendly alliances. The conversation focuses on Europe, NATO, Russia, Ukraine, and the political forces shaping the second Trump administration’s approach abroad.
Main Themes
Foreign policy as a vehicle for corruption
Applebaum argues that the Trump orbit is not simply making policy mistakes; it is replacing traditional diplomacy with a new network of loyalists, ideologues, business interests, and opportunists.
- Career diplomats and experts are sidelined.
- Political loyalty and personal connections matter more than institutional norms.
- Foreign policy is increasingly used to create business opportunities and political leverage.
A “revolutionary” project
Applebaum frames the current moment as a kind of revolution: not one based on a single ideology, but a coalition of overlapping factions.
- White-nationalist / “Western civilization” defenders
- Christian nationalists
- Anti–administrative state ideologues
- Profit-seeking actors who benefit from the breakdown of norms
Her point is that these groups are not identical, but they are aligned in dismantling existing structures.
Europe, the Far Right, and U.S. Alignment
Support for far-right parties is not benign
A major topic is the Trump administration’s openness toward far-right parties in Europe, especially those that present themselves as defenders of civilization, immigration control, or anti-regulation.
Applebaum argues that this support is often deeply misleading:
- Many of these parties are pro-Russian
- Some contain neo-Nazi elements
- Several want to weaken the EU or undermine liberal democratic institutions
- Their anti-regulatory politics also attract crypto and tech interests
She uses Germany’s AfD as a key example, arguing that it is not a straightforward defender of Western values, but a destabilizing force.
Anti-elite rhetoric can obscure real danger
Sam Harris raises the concern that some people see far-right movements as a necessary response to Islamism, immigration, and antisemitism on the left. Applebaum responds that:
- Europe is not uniformly facing open borders or civilizational collapse.
- Some centrist governments are actually stricter on immigration than their predecessors.
- The far right often exaggerates threats to justify anti-democratic agendas.
Europe’s Rearmament and Russia
Why Europe is rearming
Applebaum emphasizes that Europe’s rearmament is driven primarily by the Russian threat, not by Trump alone.
Key factors:
- Russia’s war against Ukraine
- Sabotage, cyberattacks, and assassination attempts across Europe
- Growing concern that the U.S. may not reliably defend NATO allies
- A recognition that Europe must take more responsibility for its own security
NATO credibility is under strain
The discussion touches on whether Article 5 would actually be honored in a crisis. Applebaum suggests there is deep uncertainty, especially if an attack is ambiguous or deniable.
Examples mentioned include:
- A missile “accident” that kills civilians
- Border raids or hybrid attacks in places like Estonia
- The possibility that the U.S. would hesitate to respond decisively
The War in Ukraine
The front line is a drone-saturated kill zone
Applebaum describes the battlefield as radically changed:
- The front line is highly visible to both sides because of drones
- Large-scale movement is nearly impossible
- Russian forces keep sending waves of soldiers into deadly exposed zones
- Russia is suffering enormous casualties with little gain
Russia’s strategy has expanded to civilian destruction
Beyond the front, Russia is escalating attacks on cities and infrastructure:
- Kindergartens
- Hospitals
- Scientific institutions
- Factories and civilian industry
Applebaum argues this resembles Russia’s destructive campaigns in Chechnya and Syria: not just military defeat, but the systematic wrecking of society.
Ukraine’s long-range strikes are a major development
Ukraine is now able to hit Russian targets deep inside Russia, including refineries and energy infrastructure.
- Some strikes reach targets roughly 1,000 miles away
- Ukraine has reportedly disabled a significant portion of Russian refining capacity
- This creates real pressure on Russia’s war economy
Latin America and Venezuela
Applebaum closes by broadening the argument beyond Europe. She cites Venezuela as another example of the U.S. failing to support rule of law and democratic opposition.
- She references María Corina Machado, the legitimate leader of the Venezuelan opposition
- According to the discussion, she has been prevented from returning to the country
- Applebaum argues the U.S. is not restoring legality, but instead working with criminal actors and benefiting from the chaos
Key Takeaways
- Trump-era foreign policy, in Applebaum’s view, is becoming a tool for corruption, ideological capture, and private gain.
- U.S. support for European far-right groups is not just controversial — it may be strategically destructive.
- Europe’s rearmament is being driven mainly by Russian aggression and doubts about U.S. reliability.
- Ukraine remains under intense pressure, but the war has evolved into a drone-centric stalemate in which Russia is taking huge losses.
- Across regions, the common thread is a U.S. posture that increasingly abandons democratic norms and empowers anti-democratic forces.
Notable Insight
Applebaum’s core argument is that the current moment is not merely about bad policy, but about a new political order in which foreign policy is being repurposed to serve loyalists, ideologues, and profiteers rather than American institutions or democratic allies.