Overview of How to Run an Institution in an Anti-Institution Era from Better in Person
This bonus episode of Better in Person brings together Anne Pasternak, director of the Brooklyn Museum, and Michael Roth, president of Wesleyan University, to discuss what it means to lead major cultural and educational institutions at a time of heightened distrust, political polarization, financial strain, and rapid technological change. The conversation moves from institutional mission and public trust to free speech, fundraising, October 7 and its aftermath, and the role AI may play in museums and classrooms.
What the Episode Is About
Stephen Dubner frames the discussion around a central question: How do you lead an institution when many people are skeptical of institutions themselves? Pasternak and Roth argue that museums and universities still matter deeply, but they must be more transparent, more mission-driven, and more willing to engage difficult ideas in public.
Major Themes and Takeaways
1. Institutions are under pressure, but still matter
- Pasternak argues that museums remain among the most trusted public institutions.
- Roth says universities should not be treated like “resume-building factories,” but as places where students can practice freedom, explore identity, and learn through experimentation.
- Both emphasize that institutions have to model their values rather than merely state them.
2. Leadership means absorbing criticism without losing your center
- Pasternak describes times when running the Brooklyn Museum feels like being a “punching bag,” especially during moments of social conflict.
- Roth cites advice from a mentor: don’t take anything personally—leaders get credit and blame for things beyond their control.
- Both suggest that institutional leaders need calm, humility, and strong advisors.
3. October 7 intensified pressure on both institutions
- Pasternak discusses how the Hamas attacks and the response they triggered affected her personally and professionally as a progressive Jewish woman.
- She rejects cultural boycotts, arguing that culture should be part of the solution, not isolated from it.
- Roth explains how he responded publicly with a blog post on the day of the attacks, continuing his practice of writing directly and openly on contentious issues.
4. Free speech and disagreement are part of the job
- Roth recounts inviting Antonin Scalia to Wesleyan for a free-speech lecture and the controversy that followed.
- He argues that universities should make room for difficult speakers and debate, even when the speaker’s views are deeply unpopular.
- His point: meaningful education includes hearing arguments you strongly oppose and responding to them in public.
5. Fundraising is unavoidable
- The conversation turns to the financial realities of running a museum and a university.
- Wesleyan’s endowment is much larger than the Brooklyn Museum’s, and Roth notes that he spends significant time fundraising.
- Pasternak describes the Brooklyn Museum’s pay-what-you-wish model as “the worst business model” and a source of pride, because it supports access and diversity.
6. AI may change museums and education, but not replace human experience
- Pasternak sees AI as a tool that could help visitors get more context about artworks, possibly replacing or supplementing wall labels.
- Roth is experimenting with AI in teaching, including using a chatbot to push students to think more deeply about virtue and vice.
- Both believe technology can enhance learning, but not replace the value of being physically present with art, ideas, and other people.
Art, Objects, and Personal Stories
Anne Pasternak’s painting of a knocked-out boxer
- Pasternak brings a small painting of a boxer lying flat on the canvas, gifted by her husband, artist Mike Starr.
- She sees it as a portrait of herself after a hard year—“flattened out,” but still fighting.
- The gift becomes a metaphor for resilience and support.
Michael Roth’s photographs
- Roth brings photographs by Jim Goldberg and Larry Sultan, artists he knows from his earlier career in art education.
- He discusses how these works capture loneliness, family, and the gap between how life feels to the artist and how it appears to others.
- The segment reinforces the episode’s larger point: art invites interpretation, conversation, and perspective-sharing.
Notable Insights
- Pasternak: Museums should not erase uncomfortable truths; they should confront them while still offering joy and communal experience.
- Roth: Education is best understood as a place where students learn by doing, not just by receiving information.
- Both: Institutions work best when they are public spaces for encounter—with art, with ideas, and with other people.
- Dubner’s framing: The public may distrust institutions, but people still deeply value the experiences institutions provide.
Bottom Line
The episode presents museums and universities as institutions that remain essential precisely because they create shared public space in a fragmented era. Pasternak and Roth argue that the future of their fields depends on staying mission-focused, embracing disagreement, adapting to AI, and preserving the human value of gathering in person.